Complete - Protein Calculations??

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Hi Experts Smile

I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
assessment of how much of a
particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
to complement peanut butter or certain beans.

USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's Kitchen.

It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for every
food should make it possible to write a program
to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.

Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.

Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.

TIA

RF

Archived from group: sci>med>nutrition

Del Cecchi · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 164

"RF" wrote in message $Vx3.1769@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Hi Experts Smile

>
> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
> assessment of how much of a
> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>
> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's
> Kitchen.
>
> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for every
> food should make it possible to write a program
> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>
> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>
> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.
>
> TIA
>
> RF

You know that the consumption of complimentary foods can occur over a
wide time span. And have you looked at a site like
http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_center=4&tax_level=2&tax_subject=279&topic_id=1387

It would seem that if the USDA doesn't have the data, nobody does.

Del Cecchi · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 164

"RF" wrote in message $Vx3.1769@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Hi Experts Smile

>
> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
> assessment of how much of a
> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>
> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's
> Kitchen.
>
> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for every
> food should make it possible to write a program
> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>
> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>
> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.
>
> TIA
>
> RF

And if usda doesn't, canada does
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/nutrition/fiche-nutri-data/index_e.html

I looked at oats and it had the amino breakdown for "rogers, large
flakes...."

Took maybe 5 minutes on google.

I was going to make a sarcastic comment about people saying usda knows
nothing when they can't use google.

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Del Cecchi wrote:
> "RF" wrote in message
> $Vx3.1769@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> Hi Experts Smile

>>
>> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
>> assessment of how much of a
>> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
>> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
>> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>>
>> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
>> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
>> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's
>> Kitchen.
>>
>> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for every
>> food should make it possible to write a program
>> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>>
>> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>>
>> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> RF
>
> And if usda doesn't, canada does
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/nutrition/fiche-nutri-data/index_e.html
>
> I looked at oats and it had the amino breakdown for "rogers, large
> flakes...."
>
> Took maybe 5 minutes on google.
>
> I was going to make a sarcastic comment about people saying usda knows
> nothing when they can't use google.

Thank you DC for your efforts.

At least 4 years back I discovered the USDA database and I immediately
found the amino
acid content of a huge number of foods. Since then I have asked USDA
three times about
the limiting amino acids and why they do not have the program I
mentioned above.
I never had an answer, so it seems they know nothing about such a
program and little or
nothing about the limiting values.

Thanks also for the Canadian link.

I did a search there for "limiting amino acids" and I had the answer: "
Search found no document matching your query."

So it seems they know nothing too Smile

RF

Del Cecchi · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 164

"RF" wrote in message $%13.1248@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> Del Cecchi wrote:
>> "RF" wrote in message
>> $Vx3.1769@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> Hi Experts Smile

>>>
>>> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
>>> assessment of how much of a
>>> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
>>> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
>>> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>>>
>>> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
>>> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
>>> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's
>>> Kitchen.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for
>>> every food should make it possible to write a program
>>> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>>>
>>> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>>>
>>> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>> RF
>>
>> And if usda doesn't, canada does
>> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/nutrition/fiche-nutri-data/index_e.html
>>
>> I looked at oats and it had the amino breakdown for "rogers, large
>> flakes...."
>>
>> Took maybe 5 minutes on google.
>>
>> I was going to make a sarcastic comment about people saying usda knows
>> nothing when they can't use google.
>
> Thank you DC for your efforts.
>
> At least 4 years back I discovered the USDA database and I immediately
> found the amino
> acid content of a huge number of foods. Since then I have asked USDA
> three times about
> the limiting amino acids and why they do not have the program I
> mentioned above.
> I never had an answer, so it seems they know nothing about such a
> program and little or
> nothing about the limiting values.
>
> Thanks also for the Canadian link.
>
> I did a search there for "limiting amino acids" and I had the answer:
> " Search found no document matching your query."
>
> So it seems they know nothing too Smile

>
> RF

What is the exact calculation you are trying to make? Some way of
calculating some combination of foods that provide the minimum amount of
all the amino acids required by humans that the human body doesn't
synthesize? (the so-called essential amino acids)?

The various databases tell you what is in the food. I suppose you could
scale it to some total protein value and look at percents of each and
then linearly combine and optimize to obtain all the essential amino
acids while getting the absolute minimum amount of total protein. Is
that what you are trying to do? If so, why?

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Del Cecchi wrote:
> "RF" wrote in message
> $%13.1248@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>> Del Cecchi wrote:
>>> "RF" wrote in message
>>> $Vx3.1769@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>> Hi Experts Smile

>>>>
>>>> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
>>>> assessment of how much of a
>>>> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
>>>> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
>>>> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>>>>
>>>> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
>>>> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
>>>> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's
>>>> Kitchen.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for
>>>> every food should make it possible to write a program
>>>> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>>>>
>>>> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>> RF
>>> And if usda doesn't, canada does
>>> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/nutrition/fiche-nutri-data/index_e.html
>>>
>>> I looked at oats and it had the amino breakdown for "rogers, large
>>> flakes...."
>>>
>>> Took maybe 5 minutes on google.
>>>
>>> I was going to make a sarcastic comment about people saying usda knows
>>> nothing when they can't use google.
>> Thank you DC for your efforts.
>>
>> At least 4 years back I discovered the USDA database and I immediately
>> found the amino
>> acid content of a huge number of foods. Since then I have asked USDA
>> three times about
>> the limiting amino acids and why they do not have the program I
>> mentioned above.
>> I never had an answer, so it seems they know nothing about such a
>> program and little or
>> nothing about the limiting values.
>>
>> Thanks also for the Canadian link.
>>
>> I did a search there for "limiting amino acids" and I had the answer:
>> " Search found no document matching your query."
>>
>> So it seems they know nothing too Smile

>>
>> RF
>
> What is the exact calculation you are trying to make? Some way of
> calculating some combination of foods that provide the minimum amount of
> all the amino acids required by humans that the human body doesn't
> synthesize? (the so-called essential amino acids)?
>
> The various databases tell you what is in the food. I suppose you could
> scale it to some total protein value and look at percents of each and
> then linearly combine and optimize to obtain all the essential amino
> acids while getting the absolute minimum amount of total protein. Is
> that what you are trying to do? If so, why?

Thanks DC. I discovered that, what I was trying to do, is not
necessary. The ideas
of limiting amino acids and that plant proteins are deficient. is not
correct For example,
you do not need to balance beans with wheat toast or rice. You can get
protein from
either one or both.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining for an explanation.

Thanks for your interest.

RF

Ron Peterson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 141

On Oct 27, 7:09 pm, RF wrote:

> Thanks DC. I discovered that, what I was trying to do, is not
> necessary. The ideas
> of limiting amino acids and that plant proteins are deficient. is not
> correct For example,
> you do not need to balance beans with wheat toast or rice. You can get
> protein from
> either one or both.

> See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining for an explanation.

The Wikipedia article is misleading. See
http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/unupbooks/80129e/80129E00.htm#Contents for
a more detailed explanation of protein nutrition.

There are 9 essential amino acids and each food source will have those
9 in different ratios and some protein sources won't contain a high
proportion of EAA (e.g. gelatin). In addition, the body may not have
the ability to fully digest the protein.

There is also the problem that the amino acid requirements change with
age and level of nutrition.

--
Ron

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Ron Peterson wrote:
> On Oct 27, 7:09 pm, RF wrote:
>
>> Thanks DC. I discovered that, what I was trying to do, is not
>> necessary. The ideas
>> of limiting amino acids and that plant proteins are deficient. is not
>> correct For example,
>> you do not need to balance beans with wheat toast or rice. You can get
>> protein from
>> either one or both.
>
>> See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining for an explanation.
>
> The Wikipedia article is misleading. See
> http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/unupbooks/80129e/80129E00.htm#Contents for
> a more detailed explanation of protein nutrition.
>
> There are 9 essential amino acids and each food source will have those
> 9 in different ratios and some protein sources won't contain a high
> proportion of EAA (e.g. gelatin). In addition, the body may not have
> the ability to fully digest the protein.
>
> There is also the problem that the amino acid requirements change with
> age and level of nutrition.
>
> --
> Ron

That article is dated back to the 1970s and I doubt it's accurate.
Compare the first column
Essential Amino Acid Requirements in mg/kg.
WikiPedia - lysine 12 unu.edu - 103
Valine - 10 93

etc.

RF

Ron Peterson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 141

On Oct 29, 6:22 pm, RF wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:
> > On Oct 27, 7:09 pm, RF wrote:

> >> See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining for an explanation.

> > The Wikipedia article is misleading. See
> >http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/unupbooks/80129e/80129E00.htm#Contentsfor
> > a more detailed explanation of protein nutrition.

> That article is dated back to the 1970s and I doubt it's accurate.
> Compare the first column
> Essential Amino Acid Requirements in mg/kg.
> WikiPedia - lysine 12 unu.edu - 103

You're reading it wrong. The 103 mg/kg requirement was for infants.
Only 10 mg/kg was required for adults.

As a vegetarian, if you don't get a perfect balance of EAA, the
solution should be just to increase your intake of protein rather than
trying to solve some complex linear programming problem.

--
Ron

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Ron Peterson wrote:
> On Oct 29, 6:22 pm, RF wrote:
>> Ron Peterson wrote:
>>> On Oct 27, 7:09 pm, RF wrote:
>
>>>> See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining for an explanation.
>
>>> The Wikipedia article is misleading. See
>>> http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/unupbooks/80129e/80129E00.htm#Contentsfor
>>> a more detailed explanation of protein nutrition.
>
>> That article is dated back to the 1970s and I doubt it's accurate.
>> Compare the first column
>> Essential Amino Acid Requirements in mg/kg.
>> WikiPedia - lysine 12 unu.edu - 103
>
> You're reading it wrong. The 103 mg/kg requirement was for infants.
> Only 10 mg/kg was required for adults.
>
> As a vegetarian, if you don't get a perfect balance of EAA, the
> solution should be just to increase your intake of protein rather than
> trying to solve some complex linear programming problem.
>
> --
> Ron

Yes, Ron you're right. The headers on that UNU table were very sloppy.
The next question is how much protein is correct and, presumably,
everybody has
a different need, just like that other conundrum - the omega-3 and
omega-6 balance.
What can we do to ensure that we are on the "right" side of the line in
all these cases?

Ron Peterson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 141

On Oct 31, 1:32 am, RF wrote:

> ...
> The next question is how much protein is correct and, presumably,
> everybody has a different need, just like that other conundrum - the
> omega-3 and omega-6 balance.

IIRC, the elderly need at least 0.8 g/KG/day of protein because of
lowered digestive efficiency. Athletes, physical laborers, and body
builders need more protein.

There isn't a need to keep the omega 6/omega 3 ratio low as long as
there is adequate omega 3 intake. There are plenty of plant based
omega 3 sources (ALA) such as flax, walnuts, and canola oil, there is
still a need for EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids because the body
doesn't convert ALA efficiently.

> What can we do to ensure that we are on the "right" side of the line in
> all these cases?

I take supplements for vitamins and minerals, but not in large doses.

There are nutrients that need to be kept low such as salt, trans fats,
and saturated fats (tropical oils). But, as consumers start reading
food labels, those ingredients should start to diminish.

--
Ron

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Ron Peterson wrote:
> On Oct 31, 1:32 am, RF wrote:
>
>> ...
>> The next question is how much protein is correct and, presumably,
>> everybody has a different need, just like that other conundrum - the
>> omega-3 and omega-6 balance.
>
> IIRC, the elderly need at least 0.8 g/KG/day of protein because of
> lowered digestive efficiency. Athletes, physical laborers, and body
> builders need more protein.

I have seen that number quoted a few times.

> There isn't a need to keep the omega 6/omega 3 ratio low as long as
> there is adequate omega 3 intake. There are plenty of plant based
> omega 3 sources (ALA) such as flax, walnuts, and canola oil, there is
> still a need for EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids because the body
> doesn't convert ALA efficiently.

The flax oil seems to have taken a hit recently. It appears to have
some negative effects on the prostate. Lignans added to the oil appear
to help but,
even so, DrWeil.com recommends males to avoid it for now at least. The
complete
seeds are ok but they give my gut, and others that I know of, a terrible
time, and
walnuts too. That doesn't leave much more for vegetarians. Do you know if
walnuts give problems, what is the likelihood that the oil will too?

What's the likelihood that a missing enzyme is the problem with
digesting the walnuts?

Here is a quote from a DrWeil.com newsletter in April 2006 "Although
flaxseed oil seems to
be safe for women, I still haven't seen any data showing that it is safe
for men. In October 2004,
Nutrition Journal published an analysis of nutrition and cancer. One
meta-analysis included in
that publication reviewed nine studies that revealed an association
between flaxseed oil intake
or high blood levels of alpha-linolenic acid and increased risk of
prostate cancer. The author
speculated that the lignans in flaxseed are a major component of its
anti-cancer effects and that
the lack of lignans in most brands of flaxseed oil may explain why
flaxseed oil is not beneficial.
Until we know more about the risk flaxseed oil appears to present, I
recommend that men avoid it,
or at least stick to brands that put the lignans back in. Flaxseeds,
however, present no danger to men."

Do you know of any news since that?

>> What can we do to ensure that we are on the "right" side of the line in
>> all these cases?
>
> I take supplements for vitamins and minerals, but not in large doses.
>
> There are nutrients that need to be kept low such as salt, trans fats,
> and saturated fats (tropical oils). But, as consumers start reading
> food labels, those ingredients should start to diminish.
> Ron

That's what I do too. I always read the labels and never take trans -
anything.

Thanks Ron for your input.

RF

Ron Peterson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 141

On Nov 5, 6:52 pm, RF wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:

> > There isn't a need to keep the omega 6/omega 3 ratio low as long as
> > there is adequate omega 3 intake. There are plenty of plant based
> > omega 3 sources (ALA) such as flax, walnuts, and canola oil, there is
> > still a need for EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids because the body
> > doesn't convert ALA efficiently.

> The complete
> seeds are ok but they give my gut, and others that I know of, a terrible
> time, and
> walnuts too. That doesn't leave much more for vegetarians. Do you know if
> walnuts give problems, what is the likelihood that the oil will too?

Flax seeds aren't very digestible unless they are ground. I am
surprised that someone would have a problem with walnuts since they
are so soft. I suppose some medical conditions like diverticulosis
would cause digestive problems with many types of nuts.

> What's the likelihood that a missing enzyme is the problem with
> digesting the walnuts?

I don't think that is likely.

> Do you know of any news since that?

Although I prefer other sources of omega 3 than flax seeds, I haven't
seen a scientific study showing any affect of flax seed consumption on
prostrate cancer.

--
Ron

RF · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 20

Ron Peterson wrote:
> On Nov 5, 6:52 pm, RF wrote:
>> Ron Peterson wrote:
>
>>> There isn't a need to keep the omega 6/omega 3 ratio low as long as
>>> there is adequate omega 3 intake. There are plenty of plant based
>>> omega 3 sources (ALA) such as flax, walnuts, and canola oil, there is
>>> still a need for EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids because the body
>>> doesn't convert ALA efficiently.
>
>> The complete
>> seeds are ok but they give my gut, and others that I know of, a terrible
>> time, and
>> walnuts too. That doesn't leave much more for vegetarians. Do you know if
>> walnuts give problems, what is the likelihood that the oil will too?
>
> Flax seeds aren't very digestible unless they are ground. I am
> surprised that someone would have a problem with walnuts since they
> are so soft. I suppose some medical conditions like diverticulosis
> would cause digestive problems with many types of nuts.

Most likely it is some chemical in the nuts that is upsetting my gut.
I just mix the flax seeds with a little rolled oats and put them through
my coffee grinder.
By themselves they result in a sticky mess. If the seeds are soaked in
water for a few hours
the result is soft seeds in a slimy viscous liquid. I can take a couple
of teaspoons of the grind in my cereal
for a few days and then have to stop, or spend some time in the bathroom
Wink

.

>> What's the likelihood that a missing enzyme is the problem with
>> digesting the walnuts?
>
> I don't think that is likely.

I looked at the walnut oil content in the USDA SR-18 prog and it doesn't
even mention omegas.
It has info like Phytosterols - 24 mg/tbsp, Fatty acids - total
saturated - 1.24 gr/tbsp and then various
fatty acids monosaturated, saturated, undifferentiated etc. Not much
help to me.

In http://www.tufts.edu/med/nutrition-infection/hiv/health_omega3.html
I found:
Walnuts have per oz. Total n-3 FA(g) 2.6
Flax seeds have per oz. 1.8
Walnut oil has per Tbsp. 1.4
Flax seed oil has a whopping 6.9
Canola oil has a reasonable 1.3
Soybean oil, unhydrogenated, has 0.9

I'll try out some of these.

>> Do you know of any news since that?
>
> Although I prefer other sources of omega 3 than flax seeds, I haven't
> seen a scientific study showing any affect of flax seed consumption on
> prostrate cancer.

Ground flax seeds by themselves are considered ok. The missing solids
appears to
cause the problem.

> Ron

Thanks again.

RF

Marshall Price · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 60

RF wrote:
> Hi Experts Smile

>
> I am a vegetarian and would like to be able to make an accurate
> assessment of how much of a
> particular food it takes to complement another and make a complete
> protein. For example, how much wheat it takes
> to complement peanut butter or certain beans.
>
> USDA seems to know nothing and many web sites have nonsense on this
> issue. I have been able to get an idea of how the
> system works from the books: Diet for a Small Planet and Laurel's Kitchen.
>
> It seems to me that, knowing the deficiencies in amino acids for every
> food should make it possible to write a program
> to do the calculations for matching pairs of foods.
>
> Searches I have done have led me nowhere useful.
>
> Has anyone any accurate information on this subject.

It can get very complicated, but in practice, it need not be. A few
rules of thumb I picked up long ago in college (IIRC):

(1) If you mind the lycine, leucine, tryptophan, and methionine, the
other amino acids "will take of themselves."

(2) Seeds, nuts, and grains are alike in being rich in tryptophan and
methionine. I coined a mnemonic: "Try me nuts."

(3) A self-explanatory mnemonic: "Legumes are Long in Leucine and Lycine."

(4) Peanuts are an exception to the rule. Though they're legumes,
their amino acid profile is more like that of nuts, so don't expect
grains (the bread in a sandwich) to complement them.

(5) Finally, the answer (!): The ratio you're looking for is cited
either as five to one or six to one, whether by dry weight or cooked.
That is, accompany each gram of beans with five or six grams of grains.
That's a practice arrived at independently (they say), among many
cultures worldwide. So...

>>>>>>>>>> 5:1 <<<<<<<<<<

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

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