Compound in Onion Can Reduce Blood Pressure in Hypertensive

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

A ndew study shows that Quercitin, the compound most commonly
associated with onions, may reduce blood pressure by an average of
five millimitres of mercury.

This flavonol has not been studied for its anti-hypertension effects
in the past; this group found a daily 730 milligram supplement of
quercitin led to significant reductions in the blood pressure of 22
people with high blood pressure. While this is considered a smaller,
"pilot" scale trial, the news is good because this is just another
benefit for a flavonol that has already been discovered to be
extremely valuable in human consumption. As always, consult your
naturopath or holistic MD for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
personal regimen.

Hypertension is defined as having a systolic and diastolic blood
pressure (BP) greater than 140 and 90 mmHg, affects about 600 million
people worldwide and is associated with over seven million deaths. In
the USA, the hypertension numbers have recently been adjusted. A
person can be considered to be in "pre-hypertension" today with
numbers that were considered normal just a few years ago.

The randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study,
(the best way to manage experimental trials) adds to an ever-growing
body of reported health benefits for quercitin. The flavonol was
previously linked to reduced risk of certain cancers.

Building on science from animal studies reporting a potential
hypotensive (blood pressure lowering) role for the flavonol,
researchers from the University of Utah recruited 19 men and women
with pre-hypertension (average BP 137/86 mmHg) and 22 hypertensives
(average BP 148/96 mmHg). The subjects were randomly assigned to
receive a daily supplement of quercetin (730 mg) or placebo for 28
days.

Lead author Randi Edwards and co-workers report that the hypertensives
receiving the quercitin supplement experienced reductions in systolic
and diastolic BP of seven and five mmHg, respectively, compared to
placebo.

It is important to note that no BP changes were observed in the pre-
hypertensives as a result of these interventions.

"These data are the first to our knowledge to show that quercetin
supplementation reduces blood pressure in hypertensive subjects,"
stated the researchers.

Although no mechanism of action study was performed by the
researchers, they suggested that the flavonoid could limit the
production of angiotensin II, a molecule that constricts blood vessels
(vasoconstrictor) leading to an increase in blood pressure. Further
investigation would be required to confirm this speculation.

Dave

Full text article above extracted from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/

Archived from group: sci>med>nutrition

dorsy1943 · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 36

On Oct 23, 9:02 am, Dave wrote:
> A ndew study shows that Quercitin, the compound most commonly
> associated with onions, may reduce blood pressure by an average of
> five millimitres of mercury.
>
> This flavonol has not been studied for its anti-hypertension effects
> in the past; this group found a daily 730 milligram supplement of
> quercitin led to significant reductions in the blood pressure of 22
> people with high blood pressure. While this is considered a smaller,
> "pilot" scale trial, the news is good because this is just another
> benefit for a flavonol that has already been discovered to be
> extremely valuable in human consumption. As always, consult your
> naturopath or holistic MD for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
> personal regimen.
>
> Hypertension is defined as having a systolic and diastolic blood
> pressure (BP) greater than 140 and 90 mmHg, affects about 600 million
> people worldwide and is associated with over seven million deaths. In
> the USA, the hypertension numbers have recently been adjusted. A
> person can be considered to be in "pre-hypertension" today with
> numbers that were considered normal just a few years ago.
>
> The randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study,
> (the best way to manage experimental trials) adds to an ever-growing
> body of reported health benefits for quercitin. The flavonol was
> previously linked to reduced risk of certain cancers.
>
> Building on science from animal studies reporting a potential
> hypotensive (blood pressure lowering) role for the flavonol,
> researchers from the University of Utah recruited 19 men and women
> with pre-hypertension (average BP 137/86 mmHg) and 22 hypertensives
> (average BP 148/96 mmHg). The subjects were randomly assigned to
> receive a daily supplement of quercetin (730 mg) or placebo for 28
> days.
>
> Lead author Randi Edwards and co-workers report that the hypertensives
> receiving the quercitin supplement experienced reductions in systolic
> and diastolic BP of seven and five mmHg, respectively, compared to
> placebo.
>
> It is important to note that no BP changes were observed in the pre-
> hypertensives as a result of these interventions.
>
> "These data are the first to our knowledge to show that quercetin
> supplementation reduces blood pressure in hypertensive subjects,"
> stated the researchers.
>
> Although no mechanism of action study was performed by the
> researchers, they suggested that the flavonoid could limit the
> production of angiotensin II, a molecule that constricts blood vessels
> (vasoconstrictor) leading to an increase in blood pressure. Further
> investigation would be required to confirm this speculation.
>
> Dave
>
> Full text article above extracted fromhttp://shamvswham.blogspot.com/

Is that only raw onions or cooked onions too?
Dolores

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

Hi Dolores,

This compound is present in onions, raw or cooked, but the point is
that you probably can't load up on enough onions to make the dent you
might wish in your blood pressure readings. Yes -- eating onions will
be a healthy pursuit, but the drop in blood pressure that these people
saw came because they took quercitin in large quantities via a
supplement. Companies are now learning to isolate these special plant
biochemicals and then you can really start to see the advantages, when
you get up to what will someday be considered a "therapeutic" dosage.
But for that to happen, there will need to be more and larger studies.
Clinical trials to determine just how much of quercitin is good, and
where the break point is (where the dosage turns sour and no extra
effect is noticed). Right now a lot of companies are studying this
compound for inclusion into herbal products for reducing blood
pressure. We'll have to touch on the subject again in six months to
see what's on the market,

Dave

On Oct 24, 2:16 am, dorsy1943 wrote:
> On Oct 23, 9:02 am, Dave wrote:
>
>
>
> > A ndew study shows that Quercitin, the compound most commonly
> > associated with onions, may reduce blood pressure by an average of
> > five millimitres of mercury.
>
> > This flavonol has not been studied for its anti-hypertension effects
> > in the past; this group found a daily 730 milligram supplement of
> > quercitin led to significant reductions in the blood pressure of 22
> > people with high blood pressure. While this is considered a smaller,
> > "pilot" scale trial, the news is good because this is just another
> > benefit for a flavonol that has already been discovered to be
> > extremely valuable in human consumption. As always, consult your
> > naturopath or holistic MD for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
> > personal regimen.
>
> > Hypertension is defined as having a systolic and diastolic blood
> > pressure (BP) greater than 140 and 90 mmHg, affects about 600 million
> > people worldwide and is associated with over seven million deaths. In
> > the USA, the hypertension numbers have recently been adjusted. A
> > person can be considered to be in "pre-hypertension" today with
> > numbers that were considered normal just a few years ago.
>
> > The randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study,
> > (the best way to manage experimental trials) adds to an ever-growing
> > body of reported health benefits for quercitin. The flavonol was
> > previously linked to reduced risk of certain cancers.
>
> > Building on science from animal studies reporting a potential
> > hypotensive (blood pressure lowering) role for the flavonol,
> > researchers from the University of Utah recruited 19 men and women
> > with pre-hypertension (average BP 137/86 mmHg) and 22 hypertensives
> > (average BP 148/96 mmHg). The subjects were randomly assigned to
> > receive a daily supplement of quercetin (730 mg) or placebo for 28
> > days.
>
> > Lead author Randi Edwards and co-workers report that the hypertensives
> > receiving the quercitin supplement experienced reductions in systolic
> > and diastolic BP of seven and five mmHg, respectively, compared to
> > placebo.
>
> > It is important to note that no BP changes were observed in the pre-
> > hypertensives as a result of these interventions.
>
> > "These data are the first to our knowledge to show that quercetin
> > supplementation reduces blood pressure in hypertensive subjects,"
> > stated the researchers.
>
> > Although no mechanism of action study was performed by the
> > researchers, they suggested that the flavonoid could limit the
> > production of angiotensin II, a molecule that constricts blood vessels
> > (vasoconstrictor) leading to an increase in blood pressure. Further
> > investigation would be required to confirm this speculation.
>
> > Dave
>
> > Full text article above extracted fromhttp://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
>
> Is that only raw onions or cooked onions too?
> Dolores

Mark Thorson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 344

Dave wrote:
>
> Yes -- eating onions will
> be a healthy pursuit, but the drop in blood pressure that these people
> saw came because they took quercitin in large quantities via a
> supplement. Companies are now learning to isolate these special plant
> biochemicals and then you can really start to see the advantages, when
> you get up to what will someday be considered a "therapeutic" dosage.
> But for that to happen, there will need to be more and larger studies.
> Clinical trials to determine just how much of quercitin is good, and
> where the break point is (where the dosage turns sour and no extra
> effect is noticed). Right now a lot of companies are studying this
> compound for inclusion into herbal products for reducing blood
> pressure. We'll have to touch on the subject again in six months to
> see what's on the market,

That's your marketing spin on it, written to please
the supplement companies you wish to have as sponsors
of your commercial blogspot web site. But your
advertisement presents dangerously incomplete information.

As usual, you did not report that quercetin
modulates P-gp (the major drug efflux transporter)
and CYP3A4 (the major drug-metabolizing enzyme),
however the mechanisms are unknown and the literature
is conflicting. Some reports indicate up-regulation
while others indicate down-regulation of these
enzymes, possibly due to different cell types being
studied or different time-scales being used.
Reports are also conflicting on whether quercetin
activates SXR (steroid and xenobiotic receptor),
which controls expression of P-gp and CYP3A4.

Anyone taking a drug known to be affected by
these drug clearance mechanisms (such as the
anti-rejection drug cyclosporin, contraceptive
drugs, and cancer chemotherapy drugs) should be
aware of this risk, but you'll never hear that
from the blogspot spammer. He only wants to
promote the sales of supplements. He won't tell
you about any reason for caution, because that
might offend the supplement companies. All he
wants is to get his share of the multi-billion
dollar supplement market, and he doesn't care
if anybody gets hurt by his marketing spin.

These interactions are especially important for
drugs with a low therapeutic index (small difference
between an effective dose and a fatal dose).
In the following rat study, quercetin increased
the bioavailability of the anti-cancer drug
tamoxifen by 1.2 to 1.6 times. That's a huge
amount!

Int J Pharm. 2006 Apr 26;313(1-2):144-9.
Enhanced bioavailability of tamoxifen after oral
administration of tamoxifen with quercetin in rats.
Shin SC, Choi JS, Li X.
College of Pharmacy, Chonnam National University,
Bukgu, Gwangju 500-757, Republic of Korea.

Orally administered tamoxifen undergoes a first-pass
metabolism and substrates for multidrug resistance (MDR)
transporters efflux in the liver and intestines, which
obstructs its systemic exposure. This study investigated
the effect of quercetin, a dual inhibitor of CYP3A4 and
P-gp, on the bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of
tamoxifen and one of its metabolites, 4-hydroxytamoxifen,
in rats. The pharmacokinetic parameters of tamoxifen and
4-hydroxytamoxifen in plasma were determined after orally
administering tamoxifen (10 mg/kg) with or without
quercetin (2.5, 7.5 and 15 mg/kg). The coadministration
of quercetin (2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg) significantly (p < 0.05)
increased the absorption rate constant (K(a)), peak
concentration (C(max)) and the areas under the plasma
concentration-time curve (AUC) of tamoxifen. The absolute
bioavailability (AB%) of tamoxifen with 2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg
quercetin ranged from 18.0% to 24.1%, which was
significantly higher than the control group, 15.0%
(p < 0.05). The relative bioavailability (RB%) of
tamoxifen coadministered with quercetin was 1.20-1.61
times higher than the control group. The coadministration
of quercetin caused no significant changes in the terminal
half-life (t(1/2)) and the time to reach the peak
concentration (T(max)) of tamoxifen. Compared with the
control group, the coadministration of 7.5 mg/kg quercetin
significantly (p < 0.05) increased the AUC of
4-hydroxytamoxifen. However, the metabolite ratios
(MR; AUC of 4-hydroxytamoxifen to tamoxifen) were
significantly lower (p < 0.05). This suggests that
quercetin inhibits the both MDR transporters efflux and
first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen. The enhanced
bioavailability of tamoxifen as a result of its
coadministration with quercetin might be due to the
effect of quercetin promoting the intestinal absorption
and reducing the first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen.
If the results are further confirmed in the clinical
trials, the tamoxifen dosage should be adjusted
when tamoxifen is administered with quercetin or
quercetin-containing dietary supplements in order
to avoid potential drug interactions.

Jan Drew · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 145

"Mark Thorson" wrote in message @sonic.net...
> Dave wrote:
>>
>> Yes -- eating onions will
>> be a healthy pursuit, but the drop in blood pressure that these people
>> saw came because they took quercitin in large quantities via a
>> supplement. Companies are now learning to isolate these special plant
>> biochemicals and then you can really start to see the advantages, when
>> you get up to what will someday be considered a "therapeutic" dosage.
>> But for that to happen, there will need to be more and larger studies.
>> Clinical trials to determine just how much of quercitin is good, and
>> where the break point is (where the dosage turns sour and no extra
>> effect is noticed). Right now a lot of companies are studying this
>> compound for inclusion into herbal products for reducing blood
>> pressure. We'll have to touch on the subject again in six months to
>> see what's on the market,
>
> That's your marketing spin on it, written to please
> the supplement companies you wish to have as sponsors
> of your commercial blogspot web site. But your
> advertisement presents dangerously incomplete information.
>
> As usual, you did not report that quercetin
> modulates P-gp (the major drug efflux transporter)
> and CYP3A4 (the major drug-metabolizing enzyme),
> however the mechanisms are unknown and the literature
> is conflicting. Some reports indicate up-regulation
> while others indicate down-regulation of these
> enzymes, possibly due to different cell types being
> studied or different time-scales being used.
> Reports are also conflicting on whether quercetin
> activates SXR (steroid and xenobiotic receptor),
> which controls expression of P-gp and CYP3A4.
>
> Anyone taking a drug known to be affected by
> these drug clearance mechanisms (such as the
> anti-rejection drug cyclosporin, contraceptive
> drugs, and cancer chemotherapy drugs) should be
> aware of this risk, but you'll never hear that
> from the blogspot spammer. He only wants to
> promote the sales of supplements. He won't tell
> you about any reason for caution, because that
> might offend the supplement companies. All he
> wants is to get his share of the multi-billion
> dollar supplement market, and he doesn't care
> if anybody gets hurt by his marketing spin.
>
> These interactions are especially important for
> drugs with a low therapeutic index (small difference
> between an effective dose and a fatal dose).
> In the following rat study, quercetin increased
> the bioavailability of the anti-cancer drug
> tamoxifen by 1.2 to 1.6 times. That's a huge
> amount!
>
>
> Int J Pharm. 2006 Apr 26;313(1-2):144-9.
> Enhanced bioavailability of tamoxifen after oral
> administration of tamoxifen with quercetin in rats.
> Shin SC, Choi JS, Li X.
> College of Pharmacy, Chonnam National University,
> Bukgu, Gwangju 500-757, Republic of Korea.
>
> Orally administered tamoxifen undergoes a first-pass
> metabolism and substrates for multidrug resistance (MDR)
> transporters efflux in the liver and intestines, which
> obstructs its systemic exposure. This study investigated
> the effect of quercetin, a dual inhibitor of CYP3A4 and
> P-gp, on the bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of
> tamoxifen and one of its metabolites, 4-hydroxytamoxifen,
> in rats. The pharmacokinetic parameters of tamoxifen and
> 4-hydroxytamoxifen in plasma were determined after orally
> administering tamoxifen (10 mg/kg) with or without
> quercetin (2.5, 7.5 and 15 mg/kg). The coadministration
> of quercetin (2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg) significantly (p < 0.05)
> increased the absorption rate constant (K(a)), peak
> concentration (C(max)) and the areas under the plasma
> concentration-time curve (AUC) of tamoxifen. The absolute
> bioavailability (AB%) of tamoxifen with 2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg
> quercetin ranged from 18.0% to 24.1%, which was
> significantly higher than the control group, 15.0%
> (p < 0.05). The relative bioavailability (RB%) of
> tamoxifen coadministered with quercetin was 1.20-1.61
> times higher than the control group. The coadministration
> of quercetin caused no significant changes in the terminal
> half-life (t(1/2)) and the time to reach the peak
> concentration (T(max)) of tamoxifen. Compared with the
> control group, the coadministration of 7.5 mg/kg quercetin
> significantly (p < 0.05) increased the AUC of
> 4-hydroxytamoxifen. However, the metabolite ratios
> (MR; AUC of 4-hydroxytamoxifen to tamoxifen) were
> significantly lower (p < 0.05). This suggests that
> quercetin inhibits the both MDR transporters efflux and
> first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen. The enhanced
> bioavailability of tamoxifen as a result of its
> coadministration with quercetin might be due to the
> effect of quercetin promoting the intestinal absorption
> and reducing the first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen.
> If the results are further confirmed in the clinical
> trials, the tamoxifen dosage should be adjusted
> when tamoxifen is administered with quercetin or
> quercetin-containing dietary supplements in order
> to avoid potential drug interactions.

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/archives/K/0/pub0087.html

Cancer Experts Encouraged by New Garlic/Onion Study; Allium Vegetables
Linked to Lower Prostate Cancer Risk in Humans

11/5/2002

From: Glen Weldon of the American Institute for Cancer Research,
202-328-7744

WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 -- Experts at the American Institute for Cancer Research
(AICR) today welcomed new data from a study published in the November 6
issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute (JNCI). The
researchers at AICR said the new study is an important addition to mounting
evidence that diets high in plant foods offer multi-faceted protection
against cancer.

The study, led by Dr. Ann W. Hsing of the Division of Cancer Epidemiology
and Genetics at the National Cancer Institute, was conducted in Shanghai,
China. Researchers compared the diets of individuals with early or advanced
prostate cancer to the diets of healthy individuals. In this study,
individuals who reported eating the most allium vegetables (garlic,
scallions, onions, chives and leeks) were found to have a nearly 50 percent
lower cancer risk than those who ate the least.

According to AICR, these new findings agree with the growing mass of
evidence from other studies involving allium vegetables and cancer in
general. More importantly, positive results have been consistently seen
across different kinds of scientific studies.

Constituents of garlic and other allium vegetables have displayed anti-tumor
effects in a number of laboratory studies. A few cohort studies such as the
Iowa Women's Health Study (in which the diets of human subjects are followed
for several years) have linked allium vegetables with lower risk of colon
cancer. Several case-control studies (such as the current JNCI study, in
which the diets of cancer patients are compared to the diets of healthy
individuals) have linked allium vegetables to lower risk for cancer of the
stomach, colon, esophagus, breast and endometrium (lining of the uterus).

Although evidence of an overall link between allium vegetables and cancer
prevention continues to mount, the new JNCI study is one of the first
published studies to explore the specific link between allium vegetables and
prostate cancer. Previously, a case-control study published in the British
Journal of Cancer found that garlic consumption significantly decreased the
risk of developing prostate cancer.

A constituent of garlic has displayed potential anti-tumor activity in a
Phase I clinical trial involving a small number of cancer patients, but
clinical trials are generally better suited to pinpointing the effects of
specific cancer drugs than to illuminating the complex associations between
diet and cancer.

When it comes to diet and cancer, researchers look for overall agreement
among different studies of different design completed by different
researchers. The evidence is shaping up that allium vegetables are an
important component of a cancer-protective diet high in plant foods.

The American Institute for Cancer Research is the nation's third largest
cancer charity, focusing exclusively on the link between diet and cancer.
The Institute provides a wide range of education programs that help millions
of Americans learn to make dietary changes for lower cancer risk. AICR also
supports innovative research in cancer prevention and treatment at
universities, hospitals and research centers across the U.S. The Institute
has provided over $62 million in funding for research in diet, nutrition and
cancer. AICR is a member of the World Cancer Research Fund International.

just Ed · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 4

On Oct 24, 2:37 pm, Mark Thorson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
> > Yes -- eating onions will
> > be a healthy pursuit, but the drop in blood pressure that these people
> > saw came because they took quercitin in large quantities via a
> > supplement. Companies are now learning to isolate these special plant
> > biochemicals and then you can really start to see the advantages, when
> > you get up to what will someday be considered a "therapeutic" dosage.
> > But for that to happen, there will need to be more and larger studies.
> > Clinical trials to determine just how much of quercitin is good, and
> > where the break point is (where the dosage turns sour and no extra
> > effect is noticed). Right now a lot of companies are studying this
> > compound for inclusion into herbal products for reducing blood
> > pressure. We'll have to touch on the subject again in six months to
> > see what's on the market,
>
> That's your marketing spin on it, written to please
> the supplement companies you wish to have as sponsors
> of your commercial blogspot web site. But your
> advertisement presents dangerously incomplete information.
>
> As usual, you did not report that quercetin
> modulates P-gp (the major drug efflux transporter)
> and CYP3A4 (the major drug-metabolizing enzyme),
> however the mechanisms are unknown and the literature
> is conflicting. Some reports indicate up-regulation
> while others indicate down-regulation of these
> enzymes, possibly due to different cell types being
> studied or different time-scales being used.
> Reports are also conflicting on whether quercetin
> activates SXR (steroid and xenobiotic receptor),
> which controls expression of P-gp and CYP3A4.
>
> Anyone taking a drug known to be affected by
> these drug clearance mechanisms (such as the
> anti-rejection drug cyclosporin, contraceptive
> drugs, and cancer chemotherapy drugs) should be
> aware of this risk, but you'll never hear that
> from the blogspot spammer. He only wants to
> promote the sales of supplements. He won't tell
> you about any reason for caution, because that
> might offend the supplement companies. All he
> wants is to get his share of the multi-billion
> dollar supplement market, and he doesn't care
> if anybody gets hurt by his marketing spin.
>
> These interactions are especially important for
> drugs with a low therapeutic index (small difference
> between an effective dose and a fatal dose).
> In the following rat study, quercetin increased
> the bioavailability of the anti-cancer drug
> tamoxifen by 1.2 to 1.6 times. That's a huge
> amount!
>
> Int J Pharm. 2006 Apr 26;313(1-2):144-9.
> Enhanced bioavailability of tamoxifen after oral
> administration of tamoxifen with quercetin in rats.
> Shin SC, Choi JS, Li X.
> College of Pharmacy, Chonnam National University,
> Bukgu, Gwangju 500-757, Republic of Korea.
>
> Orally administered tamoxifen undergoes a first-pass
> metabolism and substrates for multidrug resistance (MDR)
> transporters efflux in the liver and intestines, which
> obstructs its systemic exposure. This study investigated
> the effect of quercetin, a dual inhibitor of CYP3A4 and
> P-gp, on the bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of
> tamoxifen and one of its metabolites, 4-hydroxytamoxifen,
> in rats. The pharmacokinetic parameters of tamoxifen and
> 4-hydroxytamoxifen in plasma were determined after orally
> administering tamoxifen (10 mg/kg) with or without
> quercetin (2.5, 7.5 and 15 mg/kg). The coadministration
> of quercetin (2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg) significantly (p < 0.05)
> increased the absorption rate constant (K(a)), peak
> concentration (C(max)) and the areas under the plasma
> concentration-time curve (AUC) of tamoxifen. The absolute
> bioavailability (AB%) of tamoxifen with 2.5 and 7.5 mg/kg
> quercetin ranged from 18.0% to 24.1%, which was
> significantly higher than the control group, 15.0%
> (p < 0.05). The relative bioavailability (RB%) of
> tamoxifen coadministered with quercetin was 1.20-1.61
> times higher than the control group. The coadministration
> of quercetin caused no significant changes in the terminal
> half-life (t(1/2)) and the time to reach the peak
> concentration (T(max)) of tamoxifen. Compared with the
> control group, the coadministration of 7.5 mg/kg quercetin
> significantly (p < 0.05) increased the AUC of
> 4-hydroxytamoxifen. However, the metabolite ratios
> (MR; AUC of 4-hydroxytamoxifen to tamoxifen) were
> significantly lower (p < 0.05). This suggests that
> quercetin inhibits the both MDR transporters efflux and
> first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen. The enhanced
> bioavailability of tamoxifen as a result of its
> coadministration with quercetin might be due to the
> effect of quercetin promoting the intestinal absorption
> and reducing the first-pass metabolism of tamoxifen.
> If the results are further confirmed in the clinical
> trials, the tamoxifen dosage should be adjusted
> when tamoxifen is administered with quercetin or
> quercetin-containing dietary supplements in order
> to avoid potential drug interactions.

nice summary, Mark

Mark Thorson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 344

Dave wrote:
>
> On Oct 26, 8:48 am, Ron Peterson wrote:
> >
> > When someone is in the business of selling supplements, they need to
> > expect for other posters to become skeptical.
>
> Good point, Ron. That's why my articles always report on research in
> peer reviewed journals.

That's not true. Some of your "articles" have
rehashed press releases from HerbClip, which is
the unrefereed publication of a public relations
outfit for the herbal supplements industry.

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

On Oct 28, 9:01 am, Mark Thorson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
> > On Oct 26, 8:48 am, Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > > When someone is in the business of selling supplements, they need to
> > > expect for other posters to become skeptical.
>
> > Good point, Ron. That's why my articles always report on research in
> > peer reviewed journals.
>
> That's not true. Some of your "articles" have
> rehashed press releases from HerbClip, which is
> the unrefereed publication of a public relations
> outfit for the herbal supplements industry.

Mark, you are so "anti-herb" that you don't even recognize the
journals in the field. I bring interesting information about all
manner of health advice to the table, and have even included HerbClip
on one occasion. The American Botanical Council is NOT a public
relations outfit. in fact, I remember you saying the same things about
Phytomedicine, another top source of science about herbs. I think you
are doing people on this newsgroup a great disservice by being so
closed minded. Yo post bad information like this about the ABC in the
hopes of doing what . . .? Discouraging people from being informed?

Just as an FYI for you, so you know for the future, the ABC is an
indepedent, non-profit. The "mouthpiece of the industry" that you
seem to be searching for is called the American Herbal Products
Association. Now that we have that clear, let me post my information
about various healthcare approaches, and let readers decide for
themselves if it has value to them. They can inquire with their
doctors about herb/pharma interactions -- that's what doctors are for.

Dave

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

On Oct 28, 9:01 am, Mark Thorson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
> > On Oct 26, 8:48 am, Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > > When someone is in the business of selling supplements, they need to
> > > expect for other posters to become skeptical.
>
> > Good point, Ron. That's why my articles always report on research in
> > peer reviewed journals.
>
> That's not true. Some of your "articles" have
> rehashed press releases from HerbClip, which is
> the unrefereed publication of a public relations
> outfit for the herbal supplements industry.

Mark, you can't even get your arguments right. The public relations
outfit for the herbal supplements industry is called the American
Herbal Products Association, not the American Botanical Council.
That's a non-profit group which has a SAB that reviews all content in
Herbalgram and Herbclip, their two publications. Please get these two
places straight the next time you bring them up, pharma-boy.

Dave

Mark Thorson · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 344

Dave wrote:
>
> On Oct 28, 9:01 am, Mark Thorson wrote:
> > Dave wrote:
> >
> > > On Oct 26, 8:48 am, Ron Peterson wrote:
> >
> > > > When someone is in the business of selling supplements, they need to
> > > > expect for other posters to become skeptical.
> >
> > > Good point, Ron. That's why my articles always report on research in
> > > peer reviewed journals.
> >
> > That's not true. Some of your "articles" have
> > rehashed press releases from HerbClip, which is
> > the unrefereed publication of a public relations
> > outfit for the herbal supplements industry.
>
> Mark, you are so "anti-herb" that you don't even recognize the
> journals in the field. I bring interesting information about all
> manner of health advice to the table, and have even included HerbClip
> on one occasion. The American Botanical Council is NOT a public

HerbClip is NOT a peer-reviewed journal, and it's
nothing like a peer-reviewed journal. It's just
advertising to promote the sales of herbal
supplements.

And you've used their material more than just once:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/ac42e918aac13117?dmode=source

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/9a62670112f0012e?dmode=source

Note that in the latter case, you don't specifically
say you are quoting HerbClip, but quote you used is
almost identical to this article/advertisment in HerbClip:

http://content.herbalgram.org/wholefoodsmarket/herbclip/shownewsarticle.asp?i=62

> relations outfit. in fact, I remember you saying the same things about
> Phytomedicine, another top source of science about herbs. I think you

When did I say that? I did a Google search on my own
postings, and I didn't find it. Are you just blowing
smoke, again? Please provide a link to the specific
posting, as I did above.

> are doing people on this newsgroup a great disservice by being so
> closed minded. Yo post bad information like this about the ABC in the
> hopes of doing what . . .? Discouraging people from being informed?

I certainly discourage people from being misinformed
by a industry mouthpiece like HerbClip, and liars like
you.

> Just as an FYI for you, so you know for the future, the ABC is an
> indepedent, non-profit. The "mouthpiece of the industry" that you
> seem to be searching for is called the American Herbal Products

And yet, the ABC has lots of herbal industry executives
and consultants on their board of trustees and advisory
board. They cannot be trusted to tell the public the
whole truth about herbs.

> Association. Now that we have that clear, let me post my information
> about various healthcare approaches, and let readers decide for
> themselves if it has value to them. They can inquire with their
> doctors about herb/pharma interactions -- that's what doctors are for.

Speaking of which, you never responded to this comment
about your earlier posting, in which you said:

> supplements derived from plants. As I mentioned in my article, which
> should negate any of this infamous pharma tout's jabs, you need to
> talk to your doctor about what you take and how it affects any drugs
> you are prescribed.

That's not what you said in your original "article"
(actually, advertising masquerading as an article).
This is the only sentence in your original article
that says anything along those lines:

> As always, consult your naturopath or holistic MD
> for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
> personal regimen.

Where in there do you say anything about effects
on drugs you are prescribed? NOWHERE! You had
a duty to warn, and you failed to warn!

You don't care who might get hurt by your CRAP
"articles". You only care about the money.
You only care about getting your share of the
multibillion dollar supplement market. It is
on this basis that I accurately characterize
your motives as lacking in common human decency.
You are amoral.

trigonometry1972 · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 108

This is an interesting thread. Perhaps it would better for
Mark to say Dave is wrong and not ascribe motives.
The concept of "common human decency" is at best
a shaky one. From my view the world is more often
amoral than not. Amoral as much from the problems
of human limits as bad motive or mental sloth.
I recall reading an article in the New England Journal Medicine
and thinking about how the author distorted the evidence
and cited source that supported a different position
as if they support the authors position on vitamin D
supplementation doses. The authors in my view
started with a faulty conclusion and forced
the evidence to fit it.

And I'll agree with cut and paste article we see here,
one needs to consider the source. I won't excluded a commerical
source or a more bias source but when one reads
everything one needs to take the proverbial pinch
of salt with what we read. Anyway nearly all sources
in this society have some commercial ties directly
or indirectly with perhaps the exception of some individuals
here on the usenet Wink

I'll agree with Mark in that I seen materials that lacked
the "fine print type approach" that is needed with nearly
all bioactive chemicals to some extent or another.
And yet the "fine print approach" has it problems
as it becomes not a document of science but a
CYA (cover your arse) document (legal boiler plate) that runs
counter to the needs of the patient or consumer.
Hence the practice of off label use of meds by the Docs
as an example of a failing of "the fine print".
Further there is a problem with treating chemicals such
as vitamins, flavonoids, minerals, and other dietary
and nutrient like chemicals as drugs in the full sense.
The problem is that these chemicals tend to be
be more benign to a point and in some instances be presence
in the diet which means they have the "right of way" in relation to
the medical drugs which are likely more toxic and more foreign
chemicals. These latter chemicals should be introduced or used in
conjunction
with the former only after looking careful for interactions.
Understand this is a matter of degree and there
are shades of gray. The fault is with the Doc not doing "patient
teaching" (nursing term) and not knowing the information such that
they
can do it. Or expecting the nurse to do it, as nurses
are even more unqualified and limited by their profession.
Some of this falls in the field of the pharmacist and the system
during the last 100 years has side lined this profession. In
a slightly more ideal world most patients would have an indepth
consultation with a pharmacist. Their function should be
more than advanced pill counters that only look at drug interactions.
The scope needs to include all factors including herbs, vitamins
etc which means taking a history and have access to the history
gathered by the Doc. The point is the system is gravely
flawed. Then there is of drug companies and the governments
which also gravely flawed and even at times some level malevolent
in this field.

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

On Oct 29, 1:33 pm, Mark Thorson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
> > On Oct 28, 9:01 am, Mark Thorson wrote:
> > > Dave wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 26, 8:48 am, Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > > > > When someone is in the business of selling supplements, they need to
> > > > > expect for other posters to become skeptical.
>
> > > > Good point, Ron. That's why my articles always report on research in
> > > > peer reviewed journals.
>
> > > That's not true. Some of your "articles" have
> > > rehashed press releases from HerbClip, which is
> > > the unrefereed publication of a public relations
> > > outfit for the herbal supplements industry.
>
> > Mark, you are so "anti-herb" that you don't even recognize the
> > journals in the field. I bring interesting information about all
> > manner of health advice to the table, and have even included HerbClip
> > on one occasion. The American Botanical Council is NOT a public
>
> HerbClip is NOT a peer-reviewed journal, and it's
> nothing like a peer-reviewed journal. It's just
> advertising to promote the sales of herbal
> supplements.
>
> And you've used their material more than just once:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/ac42e918aac13117...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/9a62670112f0012e...
>
> Note that in the latter case, you don't specifically
> say you are quoting HerbClip, but quote you used is
> almost identical to this article/advertisment in HerbClip:
>
> http://content.herbalgram.org/wholefoodsmarket/herbclip/shownewsartic...
>
> > relations outfit. in fact, I remember you saying the same things about
> > Phytomedicine, another top source of science about herbs. I think you
>
> When did I say that? I did a Google search on my own
> postings, and I didn't find it. Are you just blowing
> smoke, again? Please provide a link to the specific
> posting, as I did above.
>
> > are doing people on this newsgroup a great disservice by being so
> > closed minded. Yo post bad information like this about the ABC in the
> > hopes of doing what . . .? Discouraging people from being informed?
>
> I certainly discourage people from being misinformed
> by a industry mouthpiece like HerbClip, and liars like
> you.
>
> > Just as an FYI for you, so you know for the future, the ABC is an
> > indepedent, non-profit. The "mouthpiece of the industry" that you
> > seem to be searching for is called the American Herbal Products
>
> And yet, the ABC has lots of herbal industry executives
> and consultants on their board of trustees and advisory
> board. They cannot be trusted to tell the public the
> whole truth about herbs.
>
> > Association. Now that we have that clear, let me post my information
> > about various healthcare approaches, and let readers decide for
> > themselves if it has value to them. They can inquire with their
> > doctors about herb/pharma interactions -- that's what doctors are for.
>
> Speaking of which, you never responded to this comment
> about your earlier posting, in which you said:
>
> > supplements derived from plants. As I mentioned in my article, which
> > should negate any of this infamous pharma tout's jabs, you need to
> > talk to your doctor about what you take and how it affects any drugs
> > you are prescribed.
>
> That's not what you said in your original "article"
> (actually, advertising masquerading as an article).
> This is the only sentence in your original article
> that says anything along those lines:
>
> > As always, consult your naturopath or holistic MD
> > for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
> > personal regimen.
>
> Where in there do you say anything about effects
> on drugs you are prescribed? NOWHERE! You had
> a duty to warn, and you failed to warn!
>
> You don't care who might get hurt by your CRAP
> "articles". You only care about the money.
> You only care about getting your share of the
> multibillion dollar supplement market. It is
> on this basis that I accurately characterize
> your motives as lacking in common human decency.
> You are amoral.

Hey Pharma Boy,

You are the single worst internet troll I've ever seen, bar none.
Keep up the good work supporting those pharmaceutical chemicals you
like to push.

Pharma Boy, you are a complete liar and you know it. You use alternate
personalities on usenet forums to promote your viewpoint and add
"stars" to your Google rating. Pharma Boy, you should be ashamed of
yourself. As you say, "you are amoral."

Dave

Dave · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 50

On Oct 29, 2:46 pm, trigonometry1...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is an interesting thread. Perhaps it would better for
> Mark to say Dave is wrong and not ascribe motives.
> The concept of "common human decency" is at best
> a shaky one. From my view the world is more often
> amoral than not. Amoral as much from the problems
> of human limits as bad motive or mental sloth.
> I recall reading an article in the New England Journal Medicine
> and thinking about how the author distorted the evidence
> and cited source that supported a different position
> as if they support the authors position on vitamin D
> supplementation doses. The authors in my view
> started with a faulty conclusion and forced
> the evidence to fit it.
>
> And I'll agree with cut and paste article we see here,
> one needs to consider the source. I won't excluded a commerical
> source or a more bias source but when one reads
> everything one needs to take the proverbial pinch
> of salt with what we read. Anyway nearly all sources
> in this society have some commercial ties directly
> or indirectly with perhaps the exception of some individuals
> here on the usenet Wink

>
> I'll agree with Mark in that I seen materials that lacked
> the "fine print type approach" that is needed with nearly
> all bioactive chemicals to some extent or another.
> And yet the "fine print approach" has it problems
> as it becomes not a document of science but a
> CYA (cover your arse) document (legal boiler plate) that runs
> counter to the needs of the patient or consumer.
> Hence the practice of off label use of meds by the Docs
> as an example of a failing of "the fine print".
> Further there is a problem with treating chemicals such
> as vitamins, flavonoids, minerals, and other dietary
> and nutrient like chemicals as drugs in the full sense.
> The problem is that these chemicals tend to be
> be more benign to a point and in some instances be presence
> in the diet which means they have the "right of way" in relation to
> the medical drugs which are likely more toxic and more foreign
> chemicals. These latter chemicals should be introduced or used in
> conjunction
> with the former only after looking careful for interactions.
> Understand this is a matter of degree and there
> are shades of gray. The fault is with the Doc not doing "patient
> teaching" (nursing term) and not knowing the information such that
> they
> can do it. Or expecting the nurse to do it, as nurses
> are even more unqualified and limited by their profession.
> Some of this falls in the field of the pharmacist and the system
> during the last 100 years has side lined this profession. In
> a slightly more ideal world most patients would have an indepth
> consultation with a pharmacist. Their function should be
> more than advanced pill counters that only look at drug interactions.
> The scope needs to include all factors including herbs, vitamins
> etc which means taking a history and have access to the history
> gathered by the Doc. The point is the system is gravely
> flawed. Then there is of drug companies and the governments
> which also gravely flawed and even at times some level malevolent
> in this field.

Good post Trig. Always take what you read with a grain of salt, but on
forums like these two (sci.med.nutrition, and misc.health.alternative)
the reader sees all kinds of things, both pure technical stuff that
someone posts directly from a journal, and then articles like mine
that are my interpretation of what the journal says. I have nothing to
do with compounds like Quercitin, for example, but I love to read and
study what they do and how they work. I have no obligation to tell
anyone anything beyond what the journal article said. If the journal
article doesn't say there is some potential conflict with a
pharmaceutical, it doesn't get into my reading of the work. I leave
that for Mark Thorson, known as Pharma Boy here on the forum, as he
loves to spend his time and energy researching anything that I post
here. I love that about him . . .

Thanks,

Dave

Dave · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 69

On Oct 30, 7:26 pm, Mark Thorson wrote:

> You are not competent to interpret the scientific
> literature for a broader audience. You have
> insufficient scientific training and poor
> writing ability, even if you had a sincere desire
> to present quality articles that are free of
> commercial bias.

Pharma Boy, let's compare resumes. You know you won't put it out
there, possibly because you post with a pseudonym, but most likely
because you are a phoney. Many people here have called you on your
posts.

You started name calling many months ago and it took me this long to
realize that the only way to respond to you is in the same manner.

Your posts aren't sincere in any way -- they are simply self
promotional fluff. You are like a Rooster puffing up your chest.
Please, keep it up. I love knowing that you are spending your time
researching as many abstracts from obscure journals as you can find --
anything to pump up the pharma and damn the alternatives,

Dave

dorsy1943 · Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 36

On Oct 24, 2:16 pm, Dave wrote:
> Hi Dolores,
>
> This compound is present in onions, raw or cooked, but the point is
> that you probably can't load up on enough onions to make the dent you
> might wish in your blood pressure readings. Yes -- eating onions will
> be a healthy pursuit, but the drop in blood pressure that these people
> saw came because they took quercitin in large quantities via a
> supplement. Companies are now learning to isolate these special plant
> biochemicals and then you can really start to see the advantages, when
> you get up to what will someday be considered a "therapeutic" dosage.
> But for that to happen, there will need to be more and larger studies.
> Clinical trials to determine just how much of quercitin is good, and
> where the break point is (where the dosage turns sour and no extra
> effect is noticed). Right now a lot of companies are studying this
> compound for inclusion into herbal products for reducing blood
> pressure. We'll have to touch on the subject again in six months to
> see what's on the market,
>
> Dave
>
> On Oct 24, 2:16 am, dorsy1943 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 9:02 am, Dave wrote:
>
> > > A ndew study shows that Quercitin, the compound most commonly
> > > associated with onions, may reduce blood pressure by an average of
> > > five millimitres of mercury.
>
> > > This flavonol has not been studied for its anti-hypertension effects
> > > in the past; this group found a daily 730 milligram supplement of
> > > quercitin led to significant reductions in the blood pressure of 22
> > > people with high blood pressure. While this is considered a smaller,
> > > "pilot" scale trial, the news is good because this is just another
> > > benefit for a flavonol that has already been discovered to be
> > > extremely valuable in human consumption. As always, consult your
> > > naturopath or holistic MD for the specifics of Quercitin in your own
> > > personal regimen.
>
> > > Hypertension is defined as having a systolic and diastolic blood
> > > pressure (BP) greater than 140 and 90 mmHg, affects about 600 million
> > > people worldwide and is associated with over seven million deaths. In
> > > the USA, the hypertension numbers have recently been adjusted. A
> > > person can be considered to be in "pre-hypertension" today with
> > > numbers that were considered normal just a few years ago.
>
> > > The randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study,
> > > (the best way to manage experimental trials) adds to an ever-growing
> > > body of reported health benefits for quercitin. The flavonol was
> > > previously linked to reduced risk of certain cancers.
>
> > > Building on science from animal studies reporting a potential
> > > hypotensive (blood pressure lowering) role for the flavonol,
> > > researchers from the University of Utah recruited 19 men and women
> > > with pre-hypertension (average BP 137/86 mmHg) and 22 hypertensives
> > > (average BP 148/96 mmHg). The subjects were randomly assigned to
> > > receive a daily supplement of quercetin (730 mg) or placebo for 28
> > > days.
>
> > > Lead author Randi Edwards and co-workers report that the hypertensives
> > > receiving the quercitin supplement experienced reductions in systolic
> > > and diastolic BP of seven and five mmHg, respectively, compared to
> > > placebo.
>
> > > It is important to note that no BP changes were observed in the pre-
> > > hypertensives as a result of these interventions.
>
> > > "These data are the first to our knowledge to show that quercetin
> > > supplementation reduces blood pressure in hypertensive subjects,"
> > > stated the researchers.
>
> > > Although no mechanism of action study was performed by the
> > > researchers, they suggested that the flavonoid could limit the
> > > production of angiotensin II, a molecule that constricts blood vessels
> > > (vasoconstrictor) leading to an increase in blood pressure. Further
> > > investigation would be required to confirm this speculation.
>
> > > Dave
>
> > > Full text article above extracted fromhttp://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
>
> > Is that only raw onions or cooked onions too?
> > Dolores- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Darn. I would not take any unregulated, non standardized supplement
because time after time, it has been shown that taking one substance
out of the food matrix often causes more harm than good (like beta
carotene and vitamin E). Campbell points this out in the China
Study. I believe he calls it reductionism.
Dolores

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cholesterol level and blood pressure, the natural treatment This web site has quite useful collection of information about health. Its focus is about Chinese herbals. After using so much modern drugs to control my blood pressure and cholesterol level, I found this site quite refreshing. At the end, the more natura

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Small amounts of dark chocolate benefit blood pressure: From Headline: Dark Chocolate for Blood Pressure Reduction (Google "Sham vs. Wham: The Health Insider" for original text and referred links) -- The July 4 issue of JAMA indicates that eating about 30 calories a day of dark chocolate was associated with a lower